Great post and well measured. Just to say that I made a bit older than you I'm 54 now I was a goth when I was a student although I guess maybe never one that was so into everything apart from the music , the cure come out wonder stuff Souxie and the banshee and the clothes.
I didn't get into particularly books or anything else that was around but then we only had Lord of the rings and then later Terry Pratchett. I never thought of it is being anything dark or dangerous. I was more into Terry Pratchett and never have been really into Gaiman apart from Good Omens.
I'm very disturbed about the way that this doesn't seem to be having an impact on his sales and publicity etc.
If he is saying that they are thinking it's okay to have relationships with people much younger than them including fans and employees as long as it's legal, I'm concerned about the message that gives especially younger women.
I am someone who as an 18 year old who in retrospect was probably vulnerable because of my family situation, ended up in a relationship with a 30 year old manager from work and there was a definite imbalance in the relationship.
I actually said “THANK YOU!” out loud while I was reading this, because I truly cannot believe how swiftly the abhorrent allegations against Gaiman have faded from the discourse sphere. Considering how instantly other authors’ careers were impacted when accused of much less (Junot Díaz comes to mind) I really can’t rest with the notion that the story breaking on the 4th of July or Alice Munro’s horrific enabling being revealed 2 days later are sufficient reasons why this isn’t being talked about.
Neil Gaiman is someone who has very public and enduring connections with well-known feminist activist artists who are advocates for survivors of assault. Tori Amos, whose daughter is his goddaughter, co-founded RAINN. There are others I thought we’d hear from by now.
I understand that this is a fraught situation, but I’m concerned that Gaiman’s Hollywood ties and other components of his Industry Name are unduly protecting him here.
And thank you for sharing some of your experiences. I think there’s a lot that we’re still learning about the extent to which, whatever the law may say, an 18-year-old is by no means an “adult” in the same way that people 30 and older are.
Hi fellow Sarah. ☺️ I renamed because I didn't realise that was going to be my username.
What you said "whatever the law may say, an 18-year-old is by no means an “adult” in the same way that people 30 and older are." Yes this exactly! Even if someone hasn't had some kind of trauma that makes them more vulnerable but who the hell really knows who they are at that age, let alone who has the strength of character to stand up to someone older, charismatic charming etc etc especially if they are the employer and also especially if they are somebody who that person looks up to anyway as a fan.
I didn't know about his connections with these domestic abuse campaigners. I hope that they give pause to whatever is happening and consider the connections with him or at least suggest to him that he gets some help or publicly apologize or say that on reflection he realizes that he made a mistake.
I think I read somewhere that Joss Whedon had a wake up call and went into therapy.
I'm concerned that the fandom of Good Omens is so caught up with wanting their story arc completed that despite a lot of them being young women they will be prepared to turn a blind eye to all of this or they hope that it blows over because then they can get what they want a happy ending. I love Good Omens as well and got quite caught up in the fandom for a while, but if I see David Tennant and Michael Sheen, both of whom I have a lot of respect for as actors and human beings, get caught up in all of this and just walk back into it, I will be hugely disappointed in them also.
Obviously Amazon has a huge investment in this arc following through and it's been so hugely popular. But hey we don't know what's going on in the background what discussions are happening etc. I noticed that none of them have done any social media posts since the revelations have come out.
That’s an important observation, I hope there’s meaning behind that social media silence. A new development is that Wolf Trapp, which is a pretty big venue, cancelled Gaiman’s upcoming appearance — it was supposed to be next week. I think that’s significant.
On principle, I get that these investigations take time, but Junot Díaz and Sherman Alexie had NO time between allegations (of forcible kissing and creepiness, nothing literally violent) and an investigation of any kind. I didn’t think I was naive anymore, but I have a new and painful understanding now of what it means to be a white male author with Hollywood ties vs. literally anybody else.
There are a couple of Gaiman short stories I consider truly exemplary and brilliant: I learn from them as a writer and have for years. So I’m sympathetic to wanting the fictional world you’re invested in to run its proper course. It’s a thorny thing.
In the case of Buffy, there were so many writers on staff who made the show what it was, and I feel like I can watch in complicated but ultimately good conscience because the show isn’t just Joss, not by a lot.
I don’t know Good Omens but I do know that it wouldn’t be what it is without Terry Pratchett, so there’s that — hard to figure out where to go on that score when you’re talking about an adaptation of an author’s source material (rather than a group collaborative effort like Buffy).
I feel like there’s a trauma bond with fandom that people don’t want to acknowledge. Too many people get defensive about creators they’ve never met to the extent that you’d expect for a family member or partner. It makes conversations unbelievably hard to have and of course doesn’t address whatever issues we’re immersing ourselves in fandom in order to heal or escape.
Neil Gaiman’s never talked about an abusive childhood but my therapist mentioned that abusers have often (maybe always) been abused and I remembered an interview where he described himself as having been “afraid of everything, you name it, the dark, everything,” as a kid.
That does NOT get him off the hook in ANY way if it does refer to trauma — he’s a 63-year-old man — but this could be the start of a lot of important conversations if we want it to be.
Hi there, yes I was so happy when I saw that post about that cancellation for the Wolf Trap event. Somebody on the subreddit I've mentioned that that was the next thing coming up.
I think there is a significance in that which is not down to the heat somebody on Twitter said that someone was saying.!!
I agree with your other points also about trauma bonding with the content creators and how difficult that makes conversations with fans.
I also think that Gaiman probably is traumatised himself. However, this is where I find it difficult. People like you and me go and get therapy when we realise that we're traumatised. And then there's another choice which is about using creation as a form of self trauma therapy and when other people get into it, exploiting them. That's still a choice. But I understand, having lived with a narcissist and having to deal with that without realising it for many years. That narcissists can actually be sometimes quite oblivious to their own patterns and the fact that they themselves are incredibly weak and unable to face their own pain and that's why they're doing what they do.
I noticed that there are video snippets of David Tennant at Super con in Florida, but I'm taking it that no one's asking him awkward questions about Neil Gaiman because they don't seem to be any of those up there at the moment.
I think I have to be very careful, because it's easier for me. I'm older possibly than a lot of folks in the online fandom, I have a spiritual practice which fills a big chunk of my need for support and I've gone a long way in the healing a lot of my trauma especially over the last couple of years.
I realise that shows like Good Omens and books etc are a huge support for many people who are going through difficult times, as they have been for me. When I was feeling emotionally overwhelmed on my healing journey, I did fall back on watching stuff like Good Omens and other comfort fare (as I thought) to help get me through within the last couple of years.
So ,whilst it is disturbing, I can understand people not wanting to admit or to push to one side any notion that, what you're consuming may actually be helping someone who is themselves toxic.
So I'm trying to stay off Twitter really as much as I can and avoid the temptation to ask of the Good Omens fans why they seem to be disregarding all of this and pushing ahead with some convention that's happening in nine days time in the UK.
I also have to unhook myself from making x equals y re my situation and the unfairness that I lived with. It is not the same as this situation, although it may feel like that sometimes. For the sake of my own mental health as much as anything else.
But I do want to keep it a bit of an eye on what's happening, not that I can actually do anything other than repost stuff and like stuff and generally keep interest going in the ongoing debate.
I also want to add that I've just reread your article and I find this paragraph very very well thought and good to remember. ". I think there’s value in the love of fictive kin and I think that love is worth the risk. The secret is not to feel a connection to a stranger (or their art) that outshines connections we have with the people who do know us, and who’ve chosen to love us for reasons other than the praise we offer them"
Great post and well measured. Just to say that I made a bit older than you I'm 54 now I was a goth when I was a student although I guess maybe never one that was so into everything apart from the music , the cure come out wonder stuff Souxie and the banshee and the clothes.
I didn't get into particularly books or anything else that was around but then we only had Lord of the rings and then later Terry Pratchett. I never thought of it is being anything dark or dangerous. I was more into Terry Pratchett and never have been really into Gaiman apart from Good Omens.
I'm very disturbed about the way that this doesn't seem to be having an impact on his sales and publicity etc.
If he is saying that they are thinking it's okay to have relationships with people much younger than them including fans and employees as long as it's legal, I'm concerned about the message that gives especially younger women.
I am someone who as an 18 year old who in retrospect was probably vulnerable because of my family situation, ended up in a relationship with a 30 year old manager from work and there was a definite imbalance in the relationship.
Hi Sarah Anne,
I actually said “THANK YOU!” out loud while I was reading this, because I truly cannot believe how swiftly the abhorrent allegations against Gaiman have faded from the discourse sphere. Considering how instantly other authors’ careers were impacted when accused of much less (Junot Díaz comes to mind) I really can’t rest with the notion that the story breaking on the 4th of July or Alice Munro’s horrific enabling being revealed 2 days later are sufficient reasons why this isn’t being talked about.
Neil Gaiman is someone who has very public and enduring connections with well-known feminist activist artists who are advocates for survivors of assault. Tori Amos, whose daughter is his goddaughter, co-founded RAINN. There are others I thought we’d hear from by now.
I understand that this is a fraught situation, but I’m concerned that Gaiman’s Hollywood ties and other components of his Industry Name are unduly protecting him here.
And thank you for sharing some of your experiences. I think there’s a lot that we’re still learning about the extent to which, whatever the law may say, an 18-year-old is by no means an “adult” in the same way that people 30 and older are.
Hi fellow Sarah. ☺️ I renamed because I didn't realise that was going to be my username.
What you said "whatever the law may say, an 18-year-old is by no means an “adult” in the same way that people 30 and older are." Yes this exactly! Even if someone hasn't had some kind of trauma that makes them more vulnerable but who the hell really knows who they are at that age, let alone who has the strength of character to stand up to someone older, charismatic charming etc etc especially if they are the employer and also especially if they are somebody who that person looks up to anyway as a fan.
I didn't know about his connections with these domestic abuse campaigners. I hope that they give pause to whatever is happening and consider the connections with him or at least suggest to him that he gets some help or publicly apologize or say that on reflection he realizes that he made a mistake.
I think I read somewhere that Joss Whedon had a wake up call and went into therapy.
I'm concerned that the fandom of Good Omens is so caught up with wanting their story arc completed that despite a lot of them being young women they will be prepared to turn a blind eye to all of this or they hope that it blows over because then they can get what they want a happy ending. I love Good Omens as well and got quite caught up in the fandom for a while, but if I see David Tennant and Michael Sheen, both of whom I have a lot of respect for as actors and human beings, get caught up in all of this and just walk back into it, I will be hugely disappointed in them also.
Obviously Amazon has a huge investment in this arc following through and it's been so hugely popular. But hey we don't know what's going on in the background what discussions are happening etc. I noticed that none of them have done any social media posts since the revelations have come out.
That’s an important observation, I hope there’s meaning behind that social media silence. A new development is that Wolf Trapp, which is a pretty big venue, cancelled Gaiman’s upcoming appearance — it was supposed to be next week. I think that’s significant.
On principle, I get that these investigations take time, but Junot Díaz and Sherman Alexie had NO time between allegations (of forcible kissing and creepiness, nothing literally violent) and an investigation of any kind. I didn’t think I was naive anymore, but I have a new and painful understanding now of what it means to be a white male author with Hollywood ties vs. literally anybody else.
There are a couple of Gaiman short stories I consider truly exemplary and brilliant: I learn from them as a writer and have for years. So I’m sympathetic to wanting the fictional world you’re invested in to run its proper course. It’s a thorny thing.
In the case of Buffy, there were so many writers on staff who made the show what it was, and I feel like I can watch in complicated but ultimately good conscience because the show isn’t just Joss, not by a lot.
I don’t know Good Omens but I do know that it wouldn’t be what it is without Terry Pratchett, so there’s that — hard to figure out where to go on that score when you’re talking about an adaptation of an author’s source material (rather than a group collaborative effort like Buffy).
I feel like there’s a trauma bond with fandom that people don’t want to acknowledge. Too many people get defensive about creators they’ve never met to the extent that you’d expect for a family member or partner. It makes conversations unbelievably hard to have and of course doesn’t address whatever issues we’re immersing ourselves in fandom in order to heal or escape.
Neil Gaiman’s never talked about an abusive childhood but my therapist mentioned that abusers have often (maybe always) been abused and I remembered an interview where he described himself as having been “afraid of everything, you name it, the dark, everything,” as a kid.
That does NOT get him off the hook in ANY way if it does refer to trauma — he’s a 63-year-old man — but this could be the start of a lot of important conversations if we want it to be.
Hi there, yes I was so happy when I saw that post about that cancellation for the Wolf Trap event. Somebody on the subreddit I've mentioned that that was the next thing coming up.
I think there is a significance in that which is not down to the heat somebody on Twitter said that someone was saying.!!
I agree with your other points also about trauma bonding with the content creators and how difficult that makes conversations with fans.
I also think that Gaiman probably is traumatised himself. However, this is where I find it difficult. People like you and me go and get therapy when we realise that we're traumatised. And then there's another choice which is about using creation as a form of self trauma therapy and when other people get into it, exploiting them. That's still a choice. But I understand, having lived with a narcissist and having to deal with that without realising it for many years. That narcissists can actually be sometimes quite oblivious to their own patterns and the fact that they themselves are incredibly weak and unable to face their own pain and that's why they're doing what they do.
I noticed that there are video snippets of David Tennant at Super con in Florida, but I'm taking it that no one's asking him awkward questions about Neil Gaiman because they don't seem to be any of those up there at the moment.
I think I have to be very careful, because it's easier for me. I'm older possibly than a lot of folks in the online fandom, I have a spiritual practice which fills a big chunk of my need for support and I've gone a long way in the healing a lot of my trauma especially over the last couple of years.
I realise that shows like Good Omens and books etc are a huge support for many people who are going through difficult times, as they have been for me. When I was feeling emotionally overwhelmed on my healing journey, I did fall back on watching stuff like Good Omens and other comfort fare (as I thought) to help get me through within the last couple of years.
So ,whilst it is disturbing, I can understand people not wanting to admit or to push to one side any notion that, what you're consuming may actually be helping someone who is themselves toxic.
So I'm trying to stay off Twitter really as much as I can and avoid the temptation to ask of the Good Omens fans why they seem to be disregarding all of this and pushing ahead with some convention that's happening in nine days time in the UK.
I also have to unhook myself from making x equals y re my situation and the unfairness that I lived with. It is not the same as this situation, although it may feel like that sometimes. For the sake of my own mental health as much as anything else.
But I do want to keep it a bit of an eye on what's happening, not that I can actually do anything other than repost stuff and like stuff and generally keep interest going in the ongoing debate.
I also want to add that I've just reread your article and I find this paragraph very very well thought and good to remember. ". I think there’s value in the love of fictive kin and I think that love is worth the risk. The secret is not to feel a connection to a stranger (or their art) that outshines connections we have with the people who do know us, and who’ve chosen to love us for reasons other than the praise we offer them"
“We want beauty to obliterate evil, but beauty has never promised to do that” is such a brilliant insight.
Thank you, Amanda! That’s truly an honor coming from you.